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	<title>Comments on: DWI: Victimless Crime</title>
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	<link>http://blog.bennettandbennett.com/2008/06/dwi-victimless-crime.html</link>
	<description>the tao of criminal-defense trial lawyering</description>
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		<title>By: John David Galt</title>
		<link>http://blog.bennettandbennett.com/2008/06/dwi-victimless-crime.html/comment-page-1#comment-4801</link>
		<dc:creator>John David Galt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Sep 2008 04:47:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2008/06/dwi-victimless-crime.html#comment-4801</guid>
		<description>I can see both sides of this argument.

Yes, drinking any amount and driving does increase your chances of an accident (although that&#039;s lumping together a wide range of possible cases, some of them MUCH more risky than others).

In numbers, your chance of an accident causing any injury or death on one trip home is increased from about 1 in 20 million to 1 in 200,000.  I wouldn&#039;t drive drunk myself, but it seems to me that 1 in 200,000 is an acceptably low risk.

But what we should REALLY be questioning is not the DUI law itself, but the way that law enforcement has lobbied for and used &quot;secondary&quot; laws, or misinterpretations of laws, to effectively destroy the presumption of innocence for anyone who &quot;just might&quot; have drunk something and driven before the cop got there.  Examples of this range from the open container law, to the practice of arresting someone sleeping it off in his car, or pushing a car home with the engine off instead of driving it, or even arresting people for public intoxication just for being over .08 in case they &quot;just might&quot; plan to drive later.

So long as the police are willing to perpetrate the abuses I&#039;ve just listed (all of which are common in my area), I&#039;ll never make a call to the police that might cause one of them to happen to anybody.

The presumption of innocence is the ONLY thing that makes America a country worth defending.  No price is too high to keep it -- or to get it back.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can see both sides of this argument.</p>
<p>Yes, drinking any amount and driving does increase your chances of an accident (although that&#8217;s lumping together a wide range of possible cases, some of them MUCH more risky than others).</p>
<p>In numbers, your chance of an accident causing any injury or death on one trip home is increased from about 1 in 20 million to 1 in 200,000.  I wouldn&#8217;t drive drunk myself, but it seems to me that 1 in 200,000 is an acceptably low risk.</p>
<p>But what we should REALLY be questioning is not the DUI law itself, but the way that law enforcement has lobbied for and used &#8220;secondary&#8221; laws, or misinterpretations of laws, to effectively destroy the presumption of innocence for anyone who &#8220;just might&#8221; have drunk something and driven before the cop got there.  Examples of this range from the open container law, to the practice of arresting someone sleeping it off in his car, or pushing a car home with the engine off instead of driving it, or even arresting people for public intoxication just for being over .08 in case they &#8220;just might&#8221; plan to drive later.</p>
<p>So long as the police are willing to perpetrate the abuses I&#8217;ve just listed (all of which are common in my area), I&#8217;ll never make a call to the police that might cause one of them to happen to anybody.</p>
<p>The presumption of innocence is the ONLY thing that makes America a country worth defending.  No price is too high to keep it &#8212; or to get it back.</p>
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		<title>By: Do taxpayer-funded ads contaminate DWI jury pools? &#124; Dui Lawyers</title>
		<link>http://blog.bennettandbennett.com/2008/06/dwi-victimless-crime.html/comment-page-1#comment-4798</link>
		<dc:creator>Do taxpayer-funded ads contaminate DWI jury pools? &#124; Dui Lawyers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Sep 2008 02:57:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2008/06/dwi-victimless-crime.html#comment-4798</guid>
		<description>[...] also wonder about the wisdom of a) overhyping the actual, real-world risks of what is usually a victimless crime, and b) failing to focus on reasons for not driving drunk besides just fear of short-term [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] also wonder about the wisdom of a) overhyping the actual, real-world risks of what is usually a victimless crime, and b) failing to focus on reasons for not driving drunk besides just fear of short-term [...]</p>
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		<title>By: shg</title>
		<link>http://blog.bennettandbennett.com/2008/06/dwi-victimless-crime.html/comment-page-1#comment-3790</link>
		<dc:creator>shg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jun 2008 22:47:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2008/06/dwi-victimless-crime.html#comment-3790</guid>
		<description>The consensual crimes, prostitution and drugs, are by-products of our Puritan political ancestry.  Drunk driving is a bit different.  It is &quot;victimless&quot; in the sense Mark means, as it is enhanced as soon as there is a &quot;victim&quot; or collateral consequence.  

But the crime, regardless of the outcome, is the volitional acts of drinking and driving, thereby setting up the scenario for a potentially tragic outcome.  DWI only means nothing bad happened by the time you got nailed.

The consequences are the result of turning it into another bogeyman crime, creating the impression of far greater moral turpitude and harm than reality justifies.  But there will never be balance as long as groups like MADD exist and politicians get elected playing on fear of harm.  

On the other hand, I know many people who feel zero tolerance for drunk driving.  Of course, they conveniently forget their own days when &quot;dumb luck&quot; got them home safely and without being arrested.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The consensual crimes, prostitution and drugs, are by-products of our Puritan political ancestry.  Drunk driving is a bit different.  It is &#8220;victimless&#8221; in the sense Mark means, as it is enhanced as soon as there is a &#8220;victim&#8221; or collateral consequence.  </p>
<p>But the crime, regardless of the outcome, is the volitional acts of drinking and driving, thereby setting up the scenario for a potentially tragic outcome.  DWI only means nothing bad happened by the time you got nailed.</p>
<p>The consequences are the result of turning it into another bogeyman crime, creating the impression of far greater moral turpitude and harm than reality justifies.  But there will never be balance as long as groups like MADD exist and politicians get elected playing on fear of harm.  </p>
<p>On the other hand, I know many people who feel zero tolerance for drunk driving.  Of course, they conveniently forget their own days when &#8220;dumb luck&#8221; got them home safely and without being arrested.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Bennett</title>
		<link>http://blog.bennettandbennett.com/2008/06/dwi-victimless-crime.html/comment-page-1#comment-3780</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Bennett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jun 2008 08:35:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2008/06/dwi-victimless-crime.html#comment-3780</guid>
		<description>Ron, WJ, I think we have to distinguish the act (driving while intoxicated) from the crime (DWI). The act &lt;i&gt;can&lt;/i&gt; have victims; the crime -- by definition -- does not. A victim is not necessary to make it a crime.

I would bet that driving while intoxicated is victimless at least 99.9 percent of the time. I think it&#039;s less than one time in a thousand that an impaired person gets behind the wheel and someone (or someone&#039;s stuff) gets damaged as a result. Most of the time the intoxicated person makes it home just fine, like you did, Ron (and if you didn&#039;t get caught or convicted, you weren&#039;t legally guilty of DWI). 

I think there&#039;s an analogy to be drawn between the act of driving while intoxicated and lots of other activities. For example: surgery can kill people. Yet not only do we not call surgery a crime with a victim, but we don&#039;t call it a crime at all.

Of course speeding is victimless. A risk is not the same as a victim. If there&#039;s a victim, it becomes something else. Not all crimes need victims to be justified.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ron, WJ, I think we have to distinguish the act (driving while intoxicated) from the crime (DWI). The act <i>can</i> have victims; the crime &#8212; by definition &#8212; does not. A victim is not necessary to make it a crime.</p>
<p>I would bet that driving while intoxicated is victimless at least 99.9 percent of the time. I think it&#8217;s less than one time in a thousand that an impaired person gets behind the wheel and someone (or someone&#8217;s stuff) gets damaged as a result. Most of the time the intoxicated person makes it home just fine, like you did, Ron (and if you didn&#8217;t get caught or convicted, you weren&#8217;t legally guilty of DWI). </p>
<p>I think there&#8217;s an analogy to be drawn between the act of driving while intoxicated and lots of other activities. For example: surgery can kill people. Yet not only do we not call surgery a crime with a victim, but we don&#8217;t call it a crime at all.</p>
<p>Of course speeding is victimless. A risk is not the same as a victim. If there&#8217;s a victim, it becomes something else. Not all crimes need victims to be justified.</p>
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		<title>By: Western Justice</title>
		<link>http://blog.bennettandbennett.com/2008/06/dwi-victimless-crime.html/comment-page-1#comment-3778</link>
		<dc:creator>Western Justice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jun 2008 06:36:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2008/06/dwi-victimless-crime.html#comment-3778</guid>
		<description>It needs to be a balance.  To say &quot;speed is a victimless crime&quot; is not exactly accurate.  The three greatest contributers to fatal accidents are speed, alcohol, and (lack of) seat belts.  Does that mean the government has no interest in prosecuting people who don&#039;t wear seat belts, speed, and drink alcohol then drive?  Thus, to say it shouldn&#039;t be a law would go too far.  Then again, if you&#039;re sending people in Houston to a year in jail for their second offense, maybe you should rethink the laws.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It needs to be a balance.  To say &#8220;speed is a victimless crime&#8221; is not exactly accurate.  The three greatest contributers to fatal accidents are speed, alcohol, and (lack of) seat belts.  Does that mean the government has no interest in prosecuting people who don&#8217;t wear seat belts, speed, and drink alcohol then drive?  Thus, to say it shouldn&#8217;t be a law would go too far.  Then again, if you&#8217;re sending people in Houston to a year in jail for their second offense, maybe you should rethink the laws.</p>
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		<title>By: ricketyclick &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Nobody Said Defending Your Rights Would Be Easy</title>
		<link>http://blog.bennettandbennett.com/2008/06/dwi-victimless-crime.html/comment-page-1#comment-3777</link>
		<dc:creator>ricketyclick &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Nobody Said Defending Your Rights Would Be Easy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jun 2008 05:47:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2008/06/dwi-victimless-crime.html#comment-3777</guid>
		<description>[...] here, he explains why the whole DWI thing is ridiculous anyway: DWI is a victimless crime. Sure, it makes you more likely to cause injury, but in fact, most of the time it [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] here, he explains why the whole DWI thing is ridiculous anyway: DWI is a victimless crime. Sure, it makes you more likely to cause injury, but in fact, most of the time it [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Ron in Houston</title>
		<link>http://blog.bennettandbennett.com/2008/06/dwi-victimless-crime.html/comment-page-1#comment-3774</link>
		<dc:creator>Ron in Houston</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jun 2008 02:42:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2008/06/dwi-victimless-crime.html#comment-3774</guid>
		<description>DWI is probably victim less about 80% of the time.  I understand your distinction about DWI and intoxication manslaughter, but it&#039;s just too fine of a distinction to say that DWI is totally victimless.

It&#039;s the other 20% that&#039;s the problem.  Walter P. Moore who designed the Astrodome was the victim of a DWI driver.  

The problem is whether our reaction to the &quot;problem&quot; is appropriate or justified.  

I know I&#039;ve been guilty of DWI.  I didn&#039;t kill anyone or even cause an accident.  I didn&#039;t get caught or convicted.  Should I have been given a criminal record for the rest of my life?  I don&#039;t think so.  Then again, I&#039;d suppose that you&#039;d say I&#039;m biased.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DWI is probably victim less about 80% of the time.  I understand your distinction about DWI and intoxication manslaughter, but it&#8217;s just too fine of a distinction to say that DWI is totally victimless.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s the other 20% that&#8217;s the problem.  Walter P. Moore who designed the Astrodome was the victim of a DWI driver.  </p>
<p>The problem is whether our reaction to the &#8220;problem&#8221; is appropriate or justified.  </p>
<p>I know I&#8217;ve been guilty of DWI.  I didn&#8217;t kill anyone or even cause an accident.  I didn&#8217;t get caught or convicted.  Should I have been given a criminal record for the rest of my life?  I don&#8217;t think so.  Then again, I&#8217;d suppose that you&#8217;d say I&#8217;m biased.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Bennett</title>
		<link>http://blog.bennettandbennett.com/2008/06/dwi-victimless-crime.html/comment-page-1#comment-3773</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Bennett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jun 2008 02:29:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2008/06/dwi-victimless-crime.html#comment-3773</guid>
		<description>SC, not wanting to see some guy&#039;s schlong doesn&#039;t make you gay; protesting that seeing it makes you &quot;a victim&quot; does raise questions, though.

Bill M, Thanks. I usually don&#039;t read Chronicle comments -- they make me feel dirty. But since it&#039;s all about me this time (sorry, SC) I read them. They did get better toward the end.

John, I think that defense should work here. Any crime requires a voluntary act; the &quot;act&quot; in DWI is driving; if the person is driving involuntarily, it shouldn&#039;t be a crime. I doubt that our courts of appeals would agree with this fundamental proposition.

BTW, Windy, Epictetus said &quot;Don&#039;t call yourself a philosopher; behave like one.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>SC, not wanting to see some guy&#8217;s schlong doesn&#8217;t make you gay; protesting that seeing it makes you &#8220;a victim&#8221; does raise questions, though.</p>
<p>Bill M, Thanks. I usually don&#8217;t read Chronicle comments &#8212; they make me feel dirty. But since it&#8217;s all about me this time (sorry, SC) I read them. They did get better toward the end.</p>
<p>John, I think that defense should work here. Any crime requires a voluntary act; the &#8220;act&#8221; in DWI is driving; if the person is driving involuntarily, it shouldn&#8217;t be a crime. I doubt that our courts of appeals would agree with this fundamental proposition.</p>
<p>BTW, Windy, Epictetus said &#8220;Don&#8217;t call yourself a philosopher; behave like one.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: john gibson</title>
		<link>http://blog.bennettandbennett.com/2008/06/dwi-victimless-crime.html/comment-page-1#comment-3772</link>
		<dc:creator>john gibson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 21:58:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2008/06/dwi-victimless-crime.html#comment-3772</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve heard the defense put forward that he would not have driven the car if he had not been so drink.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve heard the defense put forward that he would not have driven the car if he had not been so drink.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill M</title>
		<link>http://blog.bennettandbennett.com/2008/06/dwi-victimless-crime.html/comment-page-1#comment-3771</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 21:42:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2008/06/dwi-victimless-crime.html#comment-3771</guid>
		<description>Just read through the comments on your Chronicle story.  It&#039;s something I rarely do anymore.  Something I&#039;ve always found strange: commenters on local newspaper sites are always the most extremist (or vicious) group on the internet (and that&#039;s saying a lot).  It seems true of every newspaper I&#039;ve ever read, whether American and foreign.  Something about the local paper brings out the parochioal, knee-jerk reactions.

Now having set the stage, the commenters on your article were pretty even-keeled.  There was only a relatively moderate proportion damning you outright, which was surprising given that: 1) you&#039;re a lawyer, 2) who unapologetically defends the accused, and 3) this is a newspaper website.

You put out some pretty challenging ideas in very straight-forward language.  Based on the comments, I&#039;d say you made more than a few people really stop and think.

Congrats.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just read through the comments on your Chronicle story.  It&#8217;s something I rarely do anymore.  Something I&#8217;ve always found strange: commenters on local newspaper sites are always the most extremist (or vicious) group on the internet (and that&#8217;s saying a lot).  It seems true of every newspaper I&#8217;ve ever read, whether American and foreign.  Something about the local paper brings out the parochioal, knee-jerk reactions.</p>
<p>Now having set the stage, the commenters on your article were pretty even-keeled.  There was only a relatively moderate proportion damning you outright, which was surprising given that: 1) you&#8217;re a lawyer, 2) who unapologetically defends the accused, and 3) this is a newspaper website.</p>
<p>You put out some pretty challenging ideas in very straight-forward language.  Based on the comments, I&#8217;d say you made more than a few people really stop and think.</p>
<p>Congrats.</p>
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